1109 replies to this topic

[Atomic]

I agree with Bengamey's point here:

make them look less like a zoo

I also think of Angmar more as a faction of evil men/Black Numenoreans, based more around corrupt soldiers and sorcerers and few or no monsters. I love the idea of the giant bats, but IMO they should be placed in another faction like Mordor or the Goblins. I'd also severely cut down on the orcs, trolls, and such.

Just my opinion, though.

Edited by Atomic, 25 April 2009 - 03:28 PM.

[{IRS}Athos]

For the umpteenth time, most Black Numenoreans were in the SOUTH! The only way they should be implemented is as an MHH, like "The Witch-King's Fist" or something like that. The Men of Carn Dum would work much better.

[Uruk King]

Why cut down on orcs anyway? they were more easy to breed and send onto the battlefield. The realm of Angmar was close to the Misty mountains which were becoming infested in some parts by orcs, and troubling the Dwarves, the ettenmoors were infamous for their trolls, and would have rallied to the Witch-King's call, and wolves coming out of the fozen north and Rhovanion, over the mountains. Men played a large part as well, but not greater, perhaps equal.

[shadowcreature]

Exactly. Angmar's backbone army should consist of a combination of Gundabad Orcs and Men from Rhudaur amd Carn Dum, with Trolls, wolves, werewolves(if that's still in) and bats.

[Atomic]

For the umpteenth time, most Black Numenoreans were in the SOUTH! The only way they should be implemented is as an MHH, like "The Witch-King's Fist" or something like that. The Men of Carn Dum would work much better.

Well, corrupt men then. Whatever you want to call them. That's who EA put in the Angmar faction, so that's why I said evil men/Black Numenoreans.

Anyway. Yeah, I guess the orcs should stay. Angmar was made up of a lot of monsters as well.

[Dunedain Lord]

75%-90% of angmar's army was all orcs and hillmen.
That really REALLY needs to be implemented into the Angmar faction.

[Uruk King]

A draft techtree was designed by AA'Pier on page 45, it's pretty good, it shows how the presence of the hillmen could be expanded upon. Not too many orcs though, but if Angmar was to become something like it, I would be more than thrilled.

[Dalf32]

dunedain lord, can you qualify that statement?

[Captain of Arnor]

I wouldn't say that 75% to 90% of Angmars army was orcs and hill-men at all.

The Men of Carn-Dum, which were evil men of the North (including some seduced Numenorean men of Arnor, or the Arnor Traitors everyone here seems to be so fond of) made up a huge portion of the Witch-kings armies. He also did have SOME animals. He could control Wolves, he could control bats and trolls. But not as many as EA decided to throw in.

The Hill-men did play a part in Angmars war on Arnor, but not as big of one as some people here would like to think. They were at war for many long years with the men of Rhudaur. The Arnorian men, that is. And their numbers were reduced during those wars. So while their ranks did swell Angmars numbers, there weren't quite as many as some / most here would want there to be. You could add them to the game in a more expanded group and keep it canon, but I'd watch just how much is added.

If Angmar was cleaned up, and if the Men of Carn-Dum / Seduced Arnorians were expanded upon, if the trolls were heavily reduced and replaced with Wights or something like that and if they were given a Black Numenorean Mini Hero Horde, I'd call Angmar worthy of the books.

And Dunedain Lord, the fact that the bats lived in icy places isn't the problem - its the fact that Tolkien actually said basically NOTHING about them. There is no proof (that I've ever read anyways) that they even survived with pure vampiric blood until when Dol-Guldor was destroyed. Its my personal belief that they, for the most part, went extinct when their lord died - Morgoth. Now, I'm not saying that it isn't possible that some fled south and made a home near the top of the Misty Mountains, around Gundabad...I'm saying it isn't likely. And over one thousand years? Its almost certain that they actually would've lost almost all Vampiric powers after all that time. Because of a reduced number, they would've been, more or less, forced to breed with those of lesser race. Like the Numenoreans of Gondor. Slowly but surely, the vampiric line would've been bred away and eventually all that would've been left were monsterously huge bats that had a strange hunger for blood and maybe some aura of fear left about them.

Same with werewolves, only without all of the long text - its almost certain they were completely wiped out after the fall of Morgoth. Sauron tried to recreate werewolves after arriving in Middle-earth, and Wargs were the result. He couldn't match the skill of his master Morgoth.

[Uruk King]

I wouldn't say that 75% to 90% of Angmars army was orcs and hill-men at all.

Then what sort of percentage would you say? 50% to 75%?

[Captain of Arnor]

If you had to ask me? Because of the numbers I think the hill men would've had after the wars with the Arnorians in Rhudaur? Maybe 25% to 50%, at the very most. Somewhere between a quarter and half, give or take. And thats being liberal with their numbers.

The hill men had more men then the Arnorians in Rhudaur, sure, but they were heavily outmatched in strength, technology, and spirit. Without Angmar, it wouldn't have taken long for the Arnorians in Rhudaur to wipe the hill men off the planet.

I'm not saying remove the thrall hordes or anything like that, I'm only advising that you all be careful with how many of the hill men units you implement, if you're trying to keep a real, canon, true Angmar feel. The Angmar section of this mod should definitely focus more on the Evil men category - Men of Carn-Dum and Traitors of Arnor / Seduced Arnorians.

Edited by Captain of Arnor, 26 April 2009 - 09:58 PM.

[shadowcreature]

I agree with CoA, men should have a considerable part in Angmar. I see them as being mid-game while orcs start early, followed by Trolls and Wolves and such mid to late game.

[Captain of Arnor]

^ Shadowcreature just resolved this entire business here, on this thread, in my eyes. Orcs early to early-mid game, men early-mid and mid to mid-late and late (with upgrades, although probably strong enough to maintain superiority throughout the entire match) and monster units and Black Numenorean MHH units late game.

If you work off of this, which seems solid to me, all thats left is to work out the kinks - like what the monster units will be. I've made my thoughts on vampires and werewolves known, God knows I have. XD If you want another recommendation from me, I'd say dip more into the area of wights / wraiths. Evil spirits seem to be one of the main weapons of Angmar, in everything that I've read about them. That was another thing that made Men of Arnor fear Angmar...

The Witch-king could control death. Emphasize that. I could even go so far as to say, perhaps a Graveyard building should be made (a collection of grave stones / tombs) or even a Barrow mound. Not like the wild Barrow-wight lairs, but in the Barrow-Downs level, a mound like one of those. From which evil spirits can be recruited.

Edited by Captain of Arnor, 27 April 2009 - 07:21 AM.

[{IRS}Athos]

Not troll hordes, though... I'd say scrap the Hill and Snow Trolls, personally, and use reskinned Mountain/Cave Trolls as Angmar's troll unit. You could even call them Hill Trolls, if you like, but Snow Trolls... no.

[Uruk King]

Yeah, that too. So creature wise we would have Wolves, Trolls (Hill, Cave and Mountain varieties), Wights, possibly another foul spirit creature like Shadows or Wraiths, White Wolves (more powerful variations of Wolves) and Vampire Bats (not vamps, just large and terrible blood sucking bats).

Unit wise we would have possibly two or three types of Rhudaur Hillman (brigands, possibly a skirmish unit throwing spears, and spearmen), two or possibly three variations of Gundabad Orc (Warriors, archers and Wolf Riders). Spies, assasins, sorcerers, thrall masters (leadership units), Warriors of Carn Dum (Elite spear/sword wielders, excellent against infantry), and Arnor traitors (coerced Dunedain, who patrol the forests of their former realm, wielding bows).

[shadowcreature]

Sounds good regarding Uruk's layout.

[Captain of Arnor]

Here's what I'm thinking would be the best way to go for Angmar, taking Uruks approach - hope he doesn't mind.

Rhudaur Brigands, Hillmen, Spearmen. (Brigands throw axes / use small bows, Hillmen use swords, spearmen...well, I'm not quite sure what spearmen use. Think about it and let me know. :D)

Gundabad Orcs. (Early game mass-produced canon fodder sword using unit like hobbits for Arnor but a fair bit stronger, there could also be a Gundabad Archer unit who use bows if people don't like the Rhudaur Brigand unit.)

Warriors of Carn-Dum. Angmars main unit, focal point of their strength. Like Arnor Warriors and Gondor Warriors, they're an easily mass-produced infantry unit that are upgradable. Come in two varieties - Swordsman of Carn-Dum and Archer of Carn-Dum. Main unit of Angmars army, although perhaps not as numerous as the Rhudaur hillmen or Gundabad Orcs simply because those two are much, much cheaper.

Arnorian Traitors / Seduced Arnorian. The elite ranged unit of Angmar. Cloaks in the forests, uses a bow, can be upgraded with ice arrows (assuming thats the arrow upgrade we continue using for Angmar.)

Black Numenoreans. Since we almost all agreed that they should stay in the Angmar, even if in a very small role because of the POSSIBILITY that there were a few in the north with the Witch-kings armies, they should be Angmars MHH. Mini Hero Horde. Sword weilding, lots of health, area of effect multi-unit buffs that are recieved as they level up along with one attack (recieved on the last level-gained skill) that does tremendous damage against a unit (or maybe its area of effect as well.)

Monsters...I'm going to be brief on this since I hate 'em anyways. :D

Wolves, I think, belong. Since its said the Witch-king could call down wolves from the mountains. Normal wolves at first, joined later by white wolves, like Uruk said, as a more powerful unit.

Definitely more wight type units. Spirits, wraiths, something like that, recruited from a Barrow (like the ones on the Barrow Downs) or a graveyard.

Vampire bats, which could act as spies or an early attack / defense for your base or fledgling army.

Trolls...I definitely don't have much to say about those. Someone said earlier that there should only be one unit of trolls with Angmar - I agree. Not snow trolls, but maybe Mountain Trolls since Angmar was where it was - north of the troll-shaws, the breeding ground of the Mountain Trolls.

Take it or leave it, thats my idea, kinda what I feel and see when I think about Angmar. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in.

[dojob]

If we're getting back to layouts, I think i'll throw mine back into the mix:

So are there any other changes I should make to my tech tree?

Breeding Pit/Gundabad Chambers/Gundabad Pit/Breeding Chambers/etc
Lvl1:
-Gundabad Chieftain/Champion: Thrall master, gets gundabad orcs, gundabad archers, and wolf riders

Lvl2:
-Gundabad Guards (could definitely use a better name): Upgradable, decent swordsmen that have good attacks and maybe knockback/aoe and weak leadership to nearby orcs (just to make them useful as midgame units)

Lvl3:
-Angmar Trolls (Bigger and better than before, are very tough/armored, and come in 3s): Armed with the same pike/hammers as hill-trolls and are good vs almost all units, but extremely good vs cavalry and do knockback to them as well as other units.

Traitors' Camp
Lvl1:
-Rhudaur Hillmen: Light infantry armed with spears that can only get banners but move quickly.

-Rhudaur Hunters: Light Rhudaur infantry that can toggle between bows and axes and can be upgraded with banners, blades and ice arrows, but not armor.

Lvl2:
-Banner Carriers

Carn Dum Guards: Mid-level heavy infantry armed with short spears and shields, good on the defense against infantry and cavalry alike. Can get most upgrades and can use shield wall.

Lvl3:
-Carn Dum/Traitor Captains; Elite single units (or come in 3s, but then would need a name change) that are good with bows and swords, give leadership, and should probably get some other abilities as well. Either come upgraded or can get blades and ice arrows.

Wolf Den
Lvl1:
-Wolf Pack: Like the Dire Wolves already in the game, but with a better skin.

Lvl2:
-That upgrade that gives wolves spiky collars

Lvl3:
-Werewolf: Like a troll, but faster and a weaker, maybe gets a howl ability and leap

Temple of Twilight
Lvl1:
-Sorcerer

Lvl2:
-Vampires (fast flying units that have quick attacks, weak armor, and give debuffs to enemies. If stealth becomes more important, then perhaps you could give them stealth detection).

Lvl3:
-Upgrade that lets you put wight creeps on ur buildings

*Sorcerer ability upgrades remain at their current levels

**If you really want sorcerers to go (even though they're fun, unique, and fit the faction's style), then we may as well get rid of this building altogether and move vampires to the same building as wolves and werewolves.

Dark Iron Forge
-Stone Thrower: Same old unit, but with better looking Trolls.

-Same upgrades as before: armor, blades, and ice arrows

And maybe some spies thrown in, I wouldn't mind that at all

[Captain of Arnor]

=\ I didn't mean to start the huge tech-tree posting ordeal again. I was giving smaller unit details, not entire tech trees.

[dojob]

Yeah, I didn't see ur post until after i put mine up

Edited by dojob, 28 April 2009 - 01:28 AM.