1109 replies to this topic

[Uruk King]

There were also some spear-wielders from Carn-Dum that Merry mentioned in his dream at the Barrow Downs, perhaps a defensive infantry focused on enemy infantry, because their spears are too small to spear cavalry.

Also the Wolf-rders as Angmar's only cavalry force, swift and moderate cavalry.

I aslo wander if it's stepping a bit too far off the spamming line, but to differentiate Orcs from Hillmen, perhaps hillmen can do extra damage against structures and pillage resources like Dunlendings, but don't receive upgrades. Orcs can receive upgrades like the Men of Carn-Dum, and their attacks are mainly focussed on attacking infantry. My reason standing is that the Witch-king might have had the hillmen for a few years but they were all eventually killed through over use and Arnor's power, and the orcs were secondary in his Army so he would upgrade them, made sure that they destroyed the people of Arnor more efficiently, if it meant the difference between victory and defeat.

The Hillmen joined out of fear and awe of the Witch-king, Orcs would have joined willingly if they recognised him as a servant of Sauron

[Excuse_me_princess]

What about spear units who can toggle between a melee (Lance) and ranged (Javelin) mode?
The melee mode being strong against cavalary and the ranged mode being strong against monsters.

[Uruk King]

Perhaps that would best work for the Rhudaur hillmen.

[Wanderer∞]

Were wargs ever considered for Angmar? I know we've been over the fact that they were the creation of Sauron attempting to make werewolves, but would these be the white wolves talked about?

[Captain of Arnor]

I think wargs were also mostly a southern thing. Wolves are Angmars beastly attack force, I've never once read about Wargs in the north, except for the attack on the Fellowship near the Gates of Moria...but even that was still much further south then Gundabad and Carn-Dum, and Rivendell.

And besides, we've all heard about the Fell Winter of 2758 – 2759 in the Shire and those surrounding areas - we know wolves were in the north. Never heard of Wargs being around there though.

[Dunedain Lord]

I wouldn't say that 75% to 90% of Angmars army was orcs and hill-men at all.

The Men of Carn-Dum, which were evil men of the North (including some seduced Numenorean men of Arnor, or the Arnor Traitors everyone here seems to be so fond of) made up a huge portion of the Witch-kings armies. He also did have SOME animals. He could control Wolves, he could control bats and trolls. But not as many as EA decided to throw in.

The Hill-men did play a part in Angmars war on Arnor, but not as big of one as some people here would like to think. They were at war for many long years with the men of Rhudaur. The Arnorian men, that is. And their numbers were reduced during those wars. So while their ranks did swell Angmars numbers, there weren't quite as many as some / most here would want there to be. You could add them to the game in a more expanded group and keep it canon, but I'd watch just how much is added.

If Angmar was cleaned up, and if the Men of Carn-Dum / Seduced Arnorians were expanded upon, if the trolls were heavily reduced and replaced with Wights or something like that and if they were given a Black Numenorean Mini Hero Horde, I'd call Angmar worthy of the books.

And Dunedain Lord, the fact that the bats lived in icy places isn't the problem - its the fact that Tolkien actually said basically NOTHING about them. There is no proof (that I've ever read anyways) that they even survived with pure vampiric blood until when Dol-Guldor was destroyed. Its my personal belief that they, for the most part, went extinct when their lord died - Morgoth. Now, I'm not saying that it isn't possible that some fled south and made a home near the top of the Misty Mountains, around Gundabad...I'm saying it isn't likely. And over one thousand years? Its almost certain that they actually would've lost almost all Vampiric powers after all that time. Because of a reduced number, they would've been, more or less, forced to breed with those of lesser race. Like the Numenoreans of Gondor. Slowly but surely, the vampiric line would've been bred away and eventually all that would've been left were monsterously huge bats that had a strange hunger for blood and maybe some aura of fear left about them.

Same with werewolves, only without all of the long text - its almost certain they were completely wiped out after the fall of Morgoth. Sauron tried to recreate werewolves after arriving in Middle-earth, and Wargs were the result. He couldn't match the skill of his master Morgoth.

im sorry, but maybe im wrong but ill say it anyway
When did tolkein mentioned a huge buff of the army were seduced men of numenor?
All I know is that rhudaur contributed with massed numbers of hillmen which maked up most of the army along with orcs.
Orcs, as in all of the armies of darkness except for rhun en harad, are the core buff of the armies.
And about bats, i swear i read it before along with ungoliant there were a few remaining vampires in dol gudor. They all died after
Dol Gudor was attacked by the white council.
And when, CoA, did I ever say a word I wanted them in Angmar? Heck. No.
Vampires are gay and should and shoudl only be in an army in the War of Wrath or the War of the Jewels. If he really had those beasts in
the army, I dont know how Gondor and the elves wouldve prevailed.........
and bred away? Unless you're saying that they "had offspring" with different animals, no comprende!
It's different for Gondor, no? They actually were breeding with different types of men. Must've been a busy nation.
Men of Carn Dum, the regular evil minded hunchbag, is a good stable infantry and i like that. Arnor traitors? eh.........not so sure.......

Edited by Dunedain Lord, 29 April 2009 - 03:19 AM.

[shadowcreature]

There were also some spear-wielders from Carn-Dum that Merry mentioned in his dream at the Barrow Downs, perhaps a defensive infantry focused on enemy infantry, because their spears are too small to spear cavalry.

Also the Wolf-rders as Angmar's only cavalry force, swift and moderate cavalry.

I aslo wander if it's stepping a bit too far off the spamming line, but to differentiate Orcs from Hillmen, perhaps hillmen can do extra damage against structures and pillage resources like Dunlendings, but don't receive upgrades. Orcs can receive upgrades like the Men of Carn-Dum, and their attacks are mainly focussed on attacking infantry. My reason standing is that the Witch-king might have had the hillmen for a few years but they were all eventually killed through over use and Arnor's power, and the orcs were secondary in his Army so he would upgrade them, made sure that they destroyed the people of Arnor more efficiently, if it meant the difference between victory and defeat.

The Hillmen joined out of fear and awe of the Witch-king, Orcs would have joined willingly if they recognised him as a servant of Sauron

I 2nd the counter infantry spear unit. As far as roles go, it's sort of switched a little here. The Hillmen will be the main spam unit, whilst the Orcs be the secondary. Sounds fine to me. Wolf Riders as the only cavalry, mmmm ok, I suppose they could be supplemented with Hill Trolls as well.

[Uruk King]

Yes indeed, Trolls will serve as elite cavalry, but like their Mordor and Moria cousins they only come in groups of one, but they can be upgraded with weapons and armour, because they're naked trolls to start off with. And of course Big powerful trolls are as good as cavalry as you can get in Mordor.

When I said the orcs were secondary in the Witch-king's army, I meant that they were second only to the Men of Carn Dum in terms of importance to the Witch-king. I don't really intend that either orcs or hill men have to come first or second, you can recruit them together because both groups are more than efficient together, like in my description earlier. So that's my clarification.

[shadowcreature]

I gotcha Uruk. It makes sense how they would be implemented. I also agree that Hill Trolls should be upgradeable, and implied possibly they get self healing at level 2.

[Excuse_me_princess]

Well I thougth the spear toggle thing would be a good iedea for Angmar.
Since they (as I read above) are short on human units, perhaps it would be a good idea to make the human units you use a tad stronger (and costly) than normal human units, and give them a special ability.
Ir you use toggle abilities, you can have the benefit of a specialized force, while using less units.

[Captain of Arnor]

Dunedain Lord, I hope I misread you but I read that you just said Ungoliant was in Dol Guldor. o.o;

And I never said that the vampire bats bred with other animals, but with other large bats possibly of remote vampire descent in the mountains around Gundabad. If there were vampires around in the time of Angmar, they were absolutely not pure. Same goes for the 'vampires' in the Battle of the Five Armies.

Now, to clarify, I never really said that all of Angmars army were seduced men of Numenor at all. You're all misunderstanding me, or at least a few of you are.

The Men of Carn-Dum were not related to the Numenoreans, unless maybe it was very remote. They were a seperate, cruel race of men in the north, much like the Breelanders, I suppose. They weren't Arnorians or Numenorean, like I said - they were simply a race of men in the north around Carn-Dum who were subservient to the Witch-king and his powers.

The reason that the hordes of the Hill-men wouldn't have made up a large number of Angmars army was, like I said, the fact that they were long at war with the Arnorians of Rhudaur who were, to put it bluntly, much much more advanced then them both racially and technologically. They had better numbers, I don't doubt that, but I'd take a hundred armored warriors of Arnor with swords, shields, bows and pikes over a thousand Hill-men with axes, pitchforks, cleavers and slings any day of the week. :D

[Uruk King]

Well, that said does anyone think that the principle of Hillmen being more powerful against structures is reasonable?

It's certain that by themselves they would not have lasted long, but there were enough tribes to raze the towns and villages of Arnor and draw out Argeleb and see him and his soldiers defeated, with Angmar's aid in the form of Orcs and Carn Dum men. And that's why they should be more strong against structures, and of course their crude weapons and leather hide armour would not serve them well against an army of Arnor.

[shadowcreature]

I have no problem with hillmen being effective against structures, since they were earlier Dunlendings. Speaking of hillmen, I think maybe Hwaldar should be looked into consideration since imo he's a little weak.

[{IRS}Athos]

I'll say... He takes 3 hits to kill a standard Arnor Soldier.

[Uruk King]

And that's why I hardly ever use him or the Hillmen, to darn weak. And his leadership is so pathetic, I just use warchant on them to buff them up.

[Thorin IV]

Combo hordes maybe

[shadowcreature]

After Angmar's overhaul I'm sure Hillmen will be better use.

[Florisz]

Yeah, Angmar needs to be changed.

[Neth]

Angmar (Despite being horribly unaccurate in lore) is actually one of my favorite factions and I wish they had como hordes.

[Lord Aragorn]

Angmar is based too much of trolls or hillmens but they need units like men of carn dum;they have swordsman and archers but they should have some spears of carn dum and a type of dark cavalery,maybe a type of black numenoreans,but mounted;