1712 replies to this topic

[{IP} Aridor]

"Mike finishes the cross from AA with a brilliant volley. He sinks it into the back of the net. The lore-ists are up with 1 minute left in the match."

[mike_]

Awesome. Double-teamed! This is better than the US B-Ball Team at the '08 Beijing Olympics

[{IP} Aridor]

I can do this all day. Lore-ist always win.

[dojob]

But there really isn't much of an argument against it since it's not like having 3 hordes of 10 good units with heroes would be bad for gameplay; it would be unique (since nobody can summon units and heroes from a bunch of different factions as 25pp powers iirc) and probably not that much better or worse than the other 25pp powers as long as you tune the balance and numbers right. And plus, it would actually take a bit more skill to use those units than to simply point, click, and then watch freaking castles or earthquakes come out of nowhere and wreck everything, so in the end it's more than just a lore victory, but something that's good for the game as well; everybody wins, and that's what matters most.

As for the Dunedain units that Arnor regularly gets, they probably shouldn't be too godly without having a rediculous pricetag or else people would just spam these 1-unit-for-everything's and kill everybody regardless of skill. A few buffs and maybe the ability to toggle between swords and bows would be enough to make them a bit more viable, imo.

Edited by dojob, 11 February 2009 - 08:27 PM.

[{IRS}Athos]

I fail to see what I said that was against the lore... I think I'm done pretending I'm just an ordinary fan.

[dojob]

Didn't you realize, everything is against the lore to them

Edited by dojob, 13 February 2009 - 01:12 AM.

[Hasfusel]

Back on discussion, I was thinking about the whole Elrond-Círdan-Glorfindel thing.

Let's take a look at their roles in the war between Arnor and Angmar...

Elrond commanded Glorfindel to go save Arnor, and sent many Elven warriors to aid him. Other than that, he didn't have much of a direct part in the fighting, unless Angmar invaded Eregion. He might have met with the Arnor leaders once or twice.

Glorfindel fought alongside the men of Arnor throughout the whole war, standing at Earnur (did I spell that right?)'s side when he fought the Witch-King and prophesizing his downfall (unfortunately, Earnur foolishly decided to go to Carn Dúm and challenge the Witch-King to 1 on 1 combat. He entered the fortress and never returned). Glorfindel fought bravely and commanded the Elves to battle.

Círdan the Shipwright was the unofficial leader of the Grey Havens. He definately send aid to the men of Arnor, and might even have fought himself more than once. At the time, he was wielding the Ring of Fire, making him more or less as powerful as Elrond or Galadriel in his own right.

We have several options...
What I was thinking was to get rid of Elrond as Arnor's best hero, and replace him with a much stronger version of Círdan, who could perhaps only be hired once you had purchased the Istari Allegience from your fortress. I know Círdan was an Elf, not an Istari or even a Maiar, but it gives the Istari Allegiance a much larger purpose because frankly, slightly improving the usefulness of a 25pp summon doesn't really seem cost effective enough. Glorfindel could be hired with the Elven Allegiance power, with more or less the same powers, although he could perhaps be a tiny bit weaker. On the subject of Glorfindel, by the way, I'd definately give him an Inspire Fear power. In the Fellowship of the Ring, he "reveals himself as a true Elf Lord in all his fury" and appears glowing bright and terrible and twice his size and all that. If I was an Orc I'd be running like hell by then, no doubt about it.
Elrond... I'm not sure. It wouldn't be entirely fair to add him as well as Glorfindel and Círdan as recruitable heroes, so maybe you could fit him into a summon or something. He could even be recruitable from the Inn. I'm really not sure. If you had time I'd put the Elves and Dunedain as actual inn factions, but it would take lots of work and rather limit Arnor's normal unit selection. I don't know except that I really think Círdan should take Elrond's place as top-class wizard hero and Glorfindel should become a full-time hero. But whatever.

[Uruk King]

Actually, King Earnur rode to chalenge the Witch-king after he conquerd Minas Ithil, and it was known as Minas Morgul from then on, But yes I agree that Cirdan with Narya (the Ring of Fire) should be the best hero for Arnor, with Glorfindel second best. Or the other way round. But Glorfindel seriously needs a redesign, with new abilities like leadership.

[{IRS}Athos]

@ dojob: Saaaaay, you're right... they didn't like the WoA factions either.

@ Uruk King: Correct, it was Minas Ithil. I think that since Glorfindel was involved in more battles and killed a Balrog himself (never mind that it killed him too, that was just a technicality... ) he should be more powerful than Cirdan.

[Wanderer∞]

The only loop in this that I can see is that if we use Cirdan while he had the ring then what would happen when a player uses summon the istari? That would make two rings of fire!!!

[Scryer]

The only loop in this that I can see is that if we use Cirdan while he had the ring then what would happen when a player uses summon the istari? That would make two rings of fire!!!

Now we step into the timeframe of Arnor vs. the timeframe of the other factions discussion

Edited by Scryer, 15 February 2009 - 07:45 PM.

[mike_]

...again.

[{IP} Aridor]

I am pretty sure that Gandalf might have been around already. And he got the Ring as soon as he landed.

[Berethin]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I think the Istari didn't come till after the fall of Arnor, and it wasn't till they had been around for a while that till Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf. As such, there would be only one ring of fire, even if you have both Cirdain and Gandalf on the same battlefield. So, I don't think that there's any contradiction of having double rings.

As for the Istari allegiance being weak as it is right now, I'm not so sure about that. Those extra powers the wizards unlock can make all the difference in a close fight, and the fact that they stay around a little longer doesn't hurt, either. So, I personally do not see a problem with that.

Edited by Berethin, 16 February 2009 - 01:12 AM.

[{IP} Aridor]

No Gandalf got the ring as soon as he landed in the Grey Havens.

[Berethin]

Yeah, you're right; it's been a long while since I read that part, I'm afraid. But I don't think they came till after the actual fall of Arnor though, did they? I keep thinking that it was because of the fall of Arnor that the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth. If that's the case, then I still don't think the double ring issue would be a problem.

[CIL]

No, they come before the fall of Arnor. There are several different accounts, but none that I know of that say that the Istari came AFTER the fall of Arnor.

[Berethin]

Yep, that's right. I just actually looked the part I was thinking about up, and I was wrong. They came while the fighting was still in Rhuadar, by the looks of what I saw. Like I said, it was a long time ago that I read that last! So, I stand corrected on both fronts; I guess my memory isn't as good as I thought it is.

But, I guess you still have the fact that several of Arnor's heroes weren't alive at the same time anyway, so maybe there wouldn't be too much a problem with having two rings of fire on the same battle.

[Hasfusel]

The only loop in this that I can see is that if we use Cirdan while he had the ring then what would happen when a player uses summon the istari? That would make two rings of fire!!!

Just imagine that Gandalf doesn't have the Ring of Fire yet, or that Círdan's only lending it or whatever. I don't think it's important enough to mean that Círdan is weaker.

Edited by Hasfusel, 17 February 2009 - 02:07 PM.

[Canadyan]

My 2-cents on the Cirdan/Glorfindel/Elrond debate; I don't think Elrond should be on Arnor at all. He's on Rivendell and he obviously fits way better there, there doesn't need to be two Elrond's running around. Glorfindel, I understand fits on Arnor since he fought with them but if he's on Rivendell at the moment, he should probably stay there, seeing as how Rivendell probably needs the heroes. Cirdan seems like the most applicable of the three, since he spent time with them before his death and played a role in the northern struggle.

I believe it was suggested or it may be implemented, but I also think it's an awesome idea to have Cirdan (or whichever Elven hero) only be purchasable after allying with the Elves. Likewise with the Rangers, Carthaen or whomever you choose should be the same. It adds a neat dynamic to Arnor and the fact that it rallied aid from leaders in its War. Also, it's extra incentive to ally with the Rangers and Elves.