1109 replies to this topic

[dojob]

But it needs to be diverse and not be a mordor clone. I like a lot of the stuff as it is, it just needs to be balanced such as the wights from the inns, which are just nonsense.

[mike_]

Bleh!
It's diverse nature is it's undoing; Black Numenorean infantry, "Dark Rangers", attack sheep with sledgehammers and all other such nonsense has no place in this world.

[Scryer]

A Mordor clone wouldn't be fun to paly with at all.

Well, I kind of agree with what Myrdin said but some of it I don't. It's not the fact that Angmar is original or unplayable, it's the fact that it seems like Angmar is going to get trampled by any other faction in this mod. I agree with you, Myrdin, about there being a little change made to Angmar but it would have to be a significant change.

[dojob]

Bleh!
It's diverse nature is it's undoing; Black Numenorean infantry, "Dark Rangers", attack sheep with sledgehammers and all other such nonsense has no place in this world.

Hey, I like my warsheep!

[Uruk King]

uuuhhhh....... okaaayy. *shifts back cautiously*

Anyway on the subject of Angmar being a mordor clone, there are better ways to make it unique.

[mike_]

Feel free to suggest them.
EDIT: I've been putting a possible, sensible Tech Tree for Angmar in my head..I'll post it up when I get back tonight.

Edited by mike_, 23 June 2008 - 10:02 PM.

[Dalf32]

i agree with mike mostly on this one. lore ftw!
this tech tree should be interesting...

[Devon]

I think a lot of what scryer said was on the mark. Used correctly, angmar would completely own any other faction in the mod. Used even minorly wrong with any units, you'll lose.

[mike_]

Right then..not everything I've thought of and/or revised, I'll fix that when I can.
Angmar
Units
Orc Warriors.
-Standard Orc warriors..though, unlike Mordor, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour and Forged Blades.
Orc Trackers.
-Orcs with bows...while they're still crap archers, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour. Also, use Poisoned Arrows against units and Flaming Arrows against structures - they gain access to that once they reach rank two.
Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two.
Were-wolf of Forochel.
-A single unit, only useful in melee combat. As you could guess, a werewolf - though not like what you're likely used to. Instead of toggling from an ordinary Man to a...hairier Man, stays as a monstrous, bipedal, ferocious wolf.
Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.
Black Numenorean.
-Single, Captain unit. Provides leadership to nearby troops while creating negative effects in enemy ones. Wields a large, claymore-like sword, and gets a heavy armour upgrade upon reaching a certain rank - three, maybe five.
Mire-Wights.
-Slaved to a building, the "Fell Haunt" for lack of a better name. Take away enemy leadership effects, and attack enemy troops in melee combat - pretty much exactly like the Barrow-Wights found ingame.
---
That's all I've got so far, unfortunately. As you can see, I haven't come up with any siege units, buildings, or heroes yet - but I will.
I'll update when I come up with something presentable. 'Til then, feel free to comment on what I've shown so far
Cheers,
-mike

[shadowcreature]

Pretty good stuff. Perhaps call the orcs of Angmar Gundabad Warriors and Gundabad Archers? Maybe make Black Numenorians the mhh of Angmar?
Outlaw Brigand unit sound good, would they get any upgrades? If they're solely going to be based from Rhudaur and Dunland, I think they should be called Wild Hillmen.
Liking the Vampires idea.

[njm1983]

I like that stuff too mike, for siege it doesnt have to be anything spectacular, probably catapults and rams would do fine just have the units operating them looking like angmar units.

[Myrdin]

no matter what, the tech tree lacks late game units.
no more " single " units pls

till now it looks good to me, just - there are TOO much single units, these dudes would have to be damn powerfull to stand up against whole battalions.
newertheless, i want at least 2 units that are late game and come out in battalions.
in case you leave the BNArchers there no problem - in case you take them away, Angmar needs replacement for them.

as for the Vampire . . . you - the guy who always keeps saying things like " dont mix there too much diferent fantasy stuff " to make a suggestion like this . . . .

but most of the ideas were good

[The Black Goldfish]

Orc Warriors.
-Standard Orc warriors..though, unlike Mordor, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour and Forged Blades.

Unlike mordor? you mean like the gundabad orcs?

Orc Trackers.
-Orcs with bows...while they're still crap archers, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour. Also, use Poisoned Arrows against units and Flaming Arrows against structures - they gain access to that once they reach rank two.

Gundabads with bows?

Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two.

Sounds good

Were-wolf of Forochel.
-A single unit, only useful in melee combat. As you could guess, a werewolf - though not like what you're likely used to. Instead of toggling from an ordinary Man to a...hairier Man, stays as a monstrous, bipedal, ferocious wolf.

Werewolf? nah, i'll stay with my wolf cav...

Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.

I like that idea though...

Black Numenorean.
-Single, Captain unit. Provides leadership to nearby troops while creating negative effects in enemy ones. Wields a large, claymore-like sword, and gets a heavy armour upgrade upon reaching a certain rank - three, maybe five.

awww, come on! Let the BN hordes stay, they are one of the few good units in Angmar
I hate single units!

Mire-Wights.
-Slaved to a building, the "Fell Haunt" for lack of a better name. Take away enemy leadership effects, and attack enemy troops in melee combat - pretty much exactly like the Barrow-Wights found ingame.

Something like a Warg sentry, but with wights, that decrease your leadership?
either that, or wight-hordes from the temple...that could act as MHH btw...

Is this "new" units that will coexist with the present, or a whole new faction?

And please leave the heroes...they are good as they are now.

[mike_]

@shadowcreature; it doesn't matter (to me) what they're called, so I just named them what they are, hehe.
@njm; yes, that's what I was thinking - just standard catapults and rams manned by Orcs.
@myrdin; like I said, it's a work in progress. I haven't completely filled it out. As for the single units, they're not meant to go off and slaughter enemy armies all alone, they're meant to supplement their allies with leadership, take out enemy heroes, things like that. And vampires were in fact part of Middle-earth at one point, though not like the stereotypical "pale, skinny guy in a tux that can turn into a bat". Instead they'd be like the vampires in Van Helsing - which in my opinion would work great ingame.
@TBG; dunno what the "Gundabad Orcs" are, but I guess that's what these would be - I think Angmar would care more about it's soldiers than Mordor, though not as greatly as Isengard or Men of the East. Which means they'd get some form of superior technology to their cousins in Mordor. Yes, "Gundabads with bows." What's wrong with the Were-wolves? And NO to the Black Numenoreans found ingame currently. They wouldn't have a large enough population to form a cohesive fighting unit. Which is why I've suggested using them as such. A mhh might work, though. Yes, the Wights would act like Isengard's Warg Sentry. Also, yes, these would become the Angmar faction as the current is...not.
Thanks for the feedback, now to see what Rob thinks
Cheers,
-mike

[Scryer]

Orc Warriors.
-Standard Orc warriors..though, unlike Mordor, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour and Forged Blades.

Yes, you really can't go wrong with this.

Orc Trackers.
-Orcs with bows...while they're still crap archers, can be upgraded with Heavy Armour. Also, use Poisoned Arrows against units and Flaming Arrows against structures - they gain access to that once they reach rank two

Sounds like a heavier Goblin Archer unit. But I like it.

Outlaw Brigands.
-A mix of Wildmen of Dunland, Rhudaur Hillmen, etc. Anyway, toggle between spears and bows. Have strong health and attack, but relatively weak armor. Also move quite fast and are stealthed when in trees upon reaching rank two.

Instead of bows, could it be axe-throwing? We already have an archer unit (from your suggestion) so I don't think that we need a toggle between a bow and a sword. Other than that, I love this idea. I simply enjoy playing wildmen units for some reason....

Were-wolf of Forochel.
-A single unit, only useful in melee combat. As you could guess, a werewolf - though not like what you're likely used to. Instead of toggling from an ordinary Man to a...hairier Man, stays as a monstrous, bipedal, ferocious wolf.

Ginger Snaps, much? Yes, I'm lame for actually watching that.... Anyways I do enjoy the idea so long as it's not a toggle between a man and a wolf. Sounds like they'd be a faster cave troll?

Emissaries of the Iron Crown.
-Vampires..basically a large, humanoid bat. Useful mainly for scouting, causing fear in enemy troops, and providing air support in combat if forced. Acts as a miniature Nazgul on Fell Beast. Like the Were-wolves, single units.

I'm sorry but I find that vampires being added in would be really cheesy. I don't think that they fit the lore either because (if I remembered correctly...) only Morgoth used them. I guess that so long as they're not called straight-up "vampires", I could turn a blind eye.... I do like the idea of having a really versitile unit that could travel across water and fly.

Black Numenorean.
-Single, Captain unit. Provides leadership to nearby troops while creating negative effects in enemy ones. Wields a large, claymore-like sword, and gets a heavy armour upgrade upon reaching a certain rank - three, maybe five.

How is this not a M.H.H? I would give him something else other than a leadership because Angmar's other heroes can take care of that. Unless you're making it so that the WK only gives out a leadership?

Mire-Wights.
-Slaved to a building, the "Fell Haunt" for lack of a better name. Take away enemy leadership effects, and attack enemy troops in melee combat - pretty much exactly like the Barrow-Wights found ingame

I give you a green-light for this.

Lastly, what was wrong with the Stone-Throwers that Angmar had in ROTWK? I think that those would be okay for this mod.

[Dalf32]

fleshed out a bit more and obviously with some more units and whatnot this could work nicely. i already like it better than the current faction; i think its quite unique. i guess they would specialize in support-type units (the single-unit ideas) which would make them a bit harder to use than other factions.
about your outlaw brigands though, would they be spear throwers or what?

as for the heros, i would say definitely keep the witch-king and perhaps morgomir (although visually he needs to be redone imo) and keep the rhudar chieftain dude who's name escapes me atm and kharsh. would probably need to add a few more (not that many) but not all of the current ones need to go.

[mike_]

@scyer; Please, no axe-throwers. It's unrealistic and un-Tolkein. Yes, the Were-wolf would pretty much be a faster Cave Troll without the throwing stones. That's why I only called them 'vampires' in the unit description, lol. I reckon a Black Numenorean, melee-based mhh wouldn't be out of place. I agree with the current siege weapon available to them, though it may need to be renamed.
@dalf; Nah, they'd use spears in melee and toggle to bows for range. As for heroes, I'll need to test them out before I can have an opinion on them, though I'd say having the Witch-king, a few Orc Chieftains, and a Hillmen King of Rhudaur would be fine. If a Troll Chieftain is retained, he needs to be reworked - at least visually.
Cheers,
-mike

[shadowcreature]

Troll Chieftain sounds like an ideal replacement for Rogash. If the Stone Thrower is to be renamed, how about Troll Trebuchet?

[Dalf32]

i dont like calling it a trebuchet (or a catapult for that matter) because the current stone thrower is not really a traditional trebuchet. unless you consider the action of the trolls pulling down the arm the counterweight... nah i still dont like it.

[mike_]

It's not really a trebuchet, either. And calling it a 'troll trebuchet' makes it sound like it launches trolls xD
But yeah, no offense meant on the name, hehe. I guess 'stone thrower' is alright.