2298 replies to this topic

[Handepsilon]

You're boiding it wrong. Boidmachines are anti tank artillery, not siege unit.

If you're looking for siege unit, I present you Godsbane.

Also, I think Singularity is not Loval's most sadistic mission. Aegis Impervious is.

Edited by Handepsilon, 27 March 2017 - 01:54 AM.

[Derxwna Kapsyla]

Unlike Aegis Impervious, we actually have evidence of Singularity being beaten on all Easy and Hard levels.

 

It's confirmed, Aegis Impervious's beatability is a cryptid.

[Gameman112358]

Pretty expensive and unwieldy for an anti-tank artillery. And inaccurate too. XD I mean, treating it like an oversized Zephyr Artillery isn't really what I'd call easy, considering it's weapon, cooldown, cost, when you get it, and the lack of mobility (the fact that the charge process restarts if you move it is a little strange; how does it lose all of the built up energy when you tell it to move?). But hey, maybe some Last Bastion players can use this thing effectively; I sure as hell can't. XD

 

You're right, completely forgot about Godsbanes. They're pretty good as an artillery unit, though you do want to be careful, since you don't want to transform all of your Giantsbanes into Godsbanes, which will leave you with little in the form of T3 AA (I think Giantsbanes are Last Bastion's T3 AA, correct me if I'm wrong). Does require you have a Nanofiber Sync ready to go however; keep that in mind.

 

I forgot that Aegis Impervious, the most ridiculous mission I've ever seen, was made by lovalmidas. Apparently he designed it to the point that he himself couldn't beat it. Sounds like you've got someone even more determined than you are loval, since Alstar managed to beat it a week ago. (while saying Decimator Tanks are better than Apocs. Which, btw, I hope you're joking when you're saying that. Seriously, Decimators automatically lose to aircraft simply because they have no AA. And Apocs aren't nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Anyway...)

 

He did have to S&L a lot through the game though. You can beat it normally, but I imagine you'd be tearing your hair out doing so. And that mission is actually an example of how S&L capability (or lack of) should be taken into account when making a campaign mission. Can players make checkpoints before something ugly happens? Do they have a way to fallback from a nasty curveball/surprise and not start over? Something to prevent a mission going from difficult but fun to annoying and rage inducing? If players don't have that ability, do not make missions that are filled with ugly surprises and rage inducing nonsense; it's going to simply result in the playerbase collectively crying and screaming for these missions to be made easier until they're made easier. Just saying.

[X1Destroy]

Boidmachine is great. That group of SCUDs over there is throwing rockets at you? Boil them. And they're gone. Also great against infantry horde.

Edited by X1Destroy, 27 March 2017 - 05:49 AM.

[Gameman112358]

Unless it misses. Which it probably will. XD 

 

And by the time the long cooldown is done and it fires again, the enemy has 12 more groups of SCUDs ready to throw at you. XD XD XD

[Solais]

Unlike Aegis Impervious, we actually have evidence of Singularity being beaten on all Easy and Hard levels.

 

It's confirmed, Aegis Impervious's beatability is a cryptid.

Alstar recently beat it on Hard, though he used saves. Then again, it's Alstar. GIve him a mission about a conscript against endless Nuwas, and he'll beat that too.

[Gameman112358]

No, have it be a mission about a conscript against endless Apocs. Because reasons. XD XD XD

[Solais]

That was my first idea, but knowing him, he'd probably think it's too Easy. :V

[Handepsilon]

Against Salamanders, because why not

[umbracatervae]

How about against Archelon?

[Lasombra]

How about against Archelon?

Yes, that sounds much more entertaining. They were a very unpleasant surprise in Endurance.

Edited by Lasombra, 27 March 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[Transcient Being]

The real problem is that you have to start over from the beginning; most of the campaign missions are long and hard (Singularity, Juggernaut, etc.); people are not going to start over from scratch for a nightmarish mission that takes freaking forever to do. If save and load was a thing, players would simply save constantly, then load from a point where they screwed up. They learn their lesson, but they don't have to start over at the beginning (which I find detrimental; usually people that get angry/stressed out make more mistakes, and given that they have to start over and the long length of the missions, those mistakes are bound to happen, which simply becomes a vicious cycle culminating in a big rage quit and possibly uninstalling the mod; I've heard stories of that happening). 

 

S&L may never be a thing for MO, but I can see the devs did hear the call their fans were making. Quite a few of the Act II missions, while still very hard, are much more player friendly to account for the lack of S&L ability. A few examples: E13: The Conqueror isn't a super hard mission, compared to the sh*t Epsilon goes through in Act I (Singularity will always be the hardest mission in MO, period, unless the devs can somehow pull something more sadistic on us. Which I doubt, given that even sadists/masochists have their limits on how far they can go.). E14: Huehuecoyotl is a hard mission at first, but you've got a lot of tools to help you through the first part, and later parts are a breeze compared to most of MO's campaign. Most of the Allied and Soviet missions either give you a base, or have a base be ready to be captured, and you have access to the full subfaction arsenal, meaning you could easily bunker down and wait until you're ready to attack.

This. Bottle of wine for that dude!

Derxwna Kapsyla,

Where the hell did you see in my message that I expect easywininonetry? I'm talking about unfair and long missions without feature to load the game. I acquire that there are some technical problems with S/L but why in the world should I start the 40-60 mins long mission over and over again just because devs wanted me to piss off? Just tried 2 missions 5 mins ago and it was lots of fun. Now it becomes even more unfair: now, ladies and gentlemen, meet the Mr. Random! I'll explain what happened: in mission N. The last try after I passed through spy part of mission I got MCV and was washed away by enemy forces including infantry, some tanks and, the most important, 2 Thor Gunships. I'm pretty new in this mod but I quickly learnt on myself how it is strong, well, strong when you didn't even manage to build war factory. I was prepared for strong attacks, I've passed "Happy Birthday" (that was bs too btw) but THIS. Ok, 2nd try aaaand... Not a single Thor Gunships but A HORDE of tanks (I've built Flak Cannons). Off course I washed away again. Although this time spy part wasn't so hard for me 'cos I've learnt it pretty well.

[Bernadiroe]

Maybe the devs need to make the easy difficulty to be like, completely not needing S&L function. Spoil the heck out of the player just so that it's foolproof.

 

Easy: foolproof. Help given, babied the player, far more reinforcements.

Normal: trial and error, but still manageable for those who wants to finish it. No help given.

Hard: trial and error plus micromanagement skill. And probably muscle memory to some extent.

Mental: Alstar skills required.

 

Although bear in mind the babying of easy difficulty is what the devs think called babying.

Since the devs love hard missions, I wouldn't be surprised if it would look 'normal' even if they stated the 'easy' is babying the player already.

Edited by Bernadiroe, 27 March 2017 - 09:25 PM.

[Solais]

There can be only three difficulty settings due to engine limitations.

 

And to be honest, a few missions are actually quite easy now in 3.3.1. Had no problems with Allied Act 1 at all. And most Act 2 missions are quite nice too, with a few exceptions.

Edited by Solais, 27 March 2017 - 10:00 PM.

[Derxwna Kapsyla]

I think at that point it just becomes a difference in opinions. The developers will make the game they want to make, and if they want to make it challenging then that's their prerogative. They've taken significant strides to listen to the community when it came to re-balancing the campaign, and have made it significantly more manageable. They don't necessarily want the missions to be bustingly hard or undoable, but they can't control the fact that Save/Load doesn't work. It's also unfair to ask them to completely tone down their vision for the game because of something that is outside of their control. Suggestions are always acceptable, but at the end of the day, the developers will do what the developers will do.

[Solais]

I do think they have to look at Epsilon Act 1 once more, though.

[Gameman112358]

No, have it be a mission about a conscript against endless Apocs. Because reasons. XD XD XD

 

 

Against Salamanders, because why not

 

 

How about against Archelon?

 

Why not all three put together? For maximum masochism and rage on Alstar's part. *evil laughter*

 

(Also because he doesn't seem to like any of the above units, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong; I know for sure he doesn't like Apocs (dunno why), but I don't know how he feels about Salamanders and Archelons)

 

I think at that point it just becomes a difference in opinions. The developers will make the game they want to make, and if they want to make it challenging then that's their prerogative. They've taken significant strides to listen to the community when it came to re-balancing the campaign, and have made it significantly more manageable. They don't necessarily want the missions to be bustingly hard or undoable, but they can't control the fact that Save/Load doesn't work. It's also unfair to ask them to completely tone down their vision for the game because of something that is outside of their control. Suggestions are always acceptable, but at the end of the day, the developers will do what the developers will do.

Well, from my PoV, I'm not asking them to make the game easier per se, but I do want it to be hard in a sense that I can get through it if I know what the heck I'm supposed to do, not because the devs felt like adding in sneaky terror drones or paradrops loaded with T3 tanks. I like Act II more because you face ridiculous odds and powerful enemies, but you've either got backup and an arsenal ready to support you, or you've been given some powerful tools and you're getting feedback on what the hell you're supposed to be doing; most missions in Act 2 do one of these things: 

 

1) Give you a set up base to work with at some point, along with some if not all of the full subfaction arsenal. (The Raven, Divergence, Puppet Master, Noise Severe, Memory Dealer, Lizard Brain in a way, since you have a base to help you keep the Euro Alliance away long enough to get the prototypes to safety, but not to survive, Dance of Blood)

 

2) Give you an MCV and enough units to defend your position so you can set up your base, which again, you have the full arsenal at your disposal. (Exist to Exit, Firewalking, Hysteria, Stormbringer (Your PF AI ally actually give you a backup MCV in later parts if you lose it, I think), Juggernaut, The Conqueror, Ghost Hunt)

 

3) A base will be nearby that you can clear out, and you have engineers that you can use to capture said base, again, with most if not full arsenal ready for use. (Stone Cold Crazy)

 

4) If it's one of those sneak around missions, you'll generally get a large enough force or powerful hero units to use, which can make blowing through large groups relatively easy. Either that, or something later on helps you to push through (The Mermaid, Awake and Alive, Huehuecoyotl, Heartwork, Godsend, Bottleneck)

 

I just listed every mission in Act II at the moment in each category, I think. This is why I like Act II; I may be given some ugly surprises, but I'm given tools and feedback to prep ahead of time. Paradrop of T3 Tanks? Time to get my T3 Tanks and AT infantry ready! Sneak attack? No big deal, I've got my forces rushing there now! Ran into a patrol by sheer accident on a sneaking mission? Fine, my heroes are powerful enough to tear you apart no problem! 

 

Here's what I consider bad forms of increasing difficulty:

1. Making players babysit really really bad AI. This is a pet peeve of mine, and it's something I have brought up numerous times, and will continue to bring up until the map editor (and in turn the AI editor) comes out and I can change it. I'm not babysitting an AI that can't do it's job properly. Sure, it will make the mission harder, but this frustrates the player because it's a variable that he/she can't control at all. The worst part is that some of these AIs are expected to either build your infrastructure for you to control or they're expected to be useful in protecting the main objective. Examples include: Death from Above, Stormbringer, Juggernaut, basically any map with an AI ally for the most part except a few exceptions like the AI friend in The Conqueror. That one does its job pretty competently IMO.

 

2. Giving curveballs with no way to respond to them. Like I said, nasty paradrops for example are fine, but do not do it in a way that the player cannot respond. If you drop T3 tanks in a base building mission, in my base, that's fine, because I can respond and rebuild to that. But do not pull that sh*t on a sneaking mission; I consider that an instant game over and rage quit, and I imagine a lot of other players would feel the same. It's one of the reasons why people complain about Singularity so much, I think.

I could think of so much more for this list (unnecessary inclusion of barrels, enemy AI storming the player with tons of units before they even start building a power plant (and yes, that's happened before), etc.) but a lot of it I feel will be subjective, so I'll leave that much for now.

 

I know MO devs want a hard campaign, and I can respect that. But do not make it hard in the sense that the player has no control over the situation whatsoever and gets screwed over for it. That's not good difficulty, that's just giving the player the middle finger for things he/she has no control over, which I doubt you guys want unless your plan for MO is to have your player base ragequit from the campaign. XD

[Wayward Winds]

[...]

 

Now it becomes even more unfair: now, ladies and gentlemen, meet the Mr. Random! I'll explain what happened: in mission N. The last try after I passed through spy part of mission I got MCV and was washed away by enemy forces including infantry, some tanks and, the most important, 2 Thor Gunships. I'm pretty new in this mod but I quickly learnt on myself how it is strong, well, strong when you didn't even manage to build war factory. I was prepared for strong attacks, I've passed "Happy Birthday" (that was bs too btw) but THIS. Ok, 2nd try aaaand... Not a single Thor Gunships but A HORDE of tanks (I've built Flak Cannons). Off course I washed away again. Although this time spy part wasn't so hard for me 'cos I've learnt it pretty well.

 

 

It's probably worth pointing out here that the enemy AI adapts to what you're doing.  You need to have a balance of units, because the AI will always look for weaknesses in your current array of deployed stuff and try to exploit them.  That's probably why you didn't see Thors the second time round, because you had a pretty good AA defense, but because you'd focused on that and neglected your AT defences it could see an opening to roll over you with tanks instead.

You'll see this behaviour more in skirmishes, but it's present in the campaign as well.  Like the Chinese in Dragonstorm choosing between Nuwa/Qilin assaults or Kirovs depending on whether your AG or AA is easier to penetrate.

What makes this unfair is that the AI can see everything on the map at all times, whereas you're limited by the fog of war.  You'd be doing the same to it if you could see its base.  But as far as I'm aware, you can't tell the AI to pretend it's under the same rules as the player.

[Terminal Velocity]

In Singularity it's possible to go for the Iron Curtain using the endless supply of Ivans.

Spoiler

[Handepsilon]

Actually Alstar has fetish with Salamander as far as I'm informed

Also, Juggernaut doesn't count because the Chinese are just cinematic cameo with base full of barrels. We know where it's going when you see barrels in an ally AI's base. Just pretend they're dead already.